ETHN-5-31131 Weekly Assignment #5: Discussion Board
Replying to Alyssa Arispe
I have enjoyed reading the quote by Thomas Carlyle's that
state that “I am growing daily and hourly more lukewarm about this preaching
business”. I also agree with you that the sentiment from Carlyle offers some
insight into Victorian era which was marked by the lack of morals values. According
to Thomas, the Victorian era was marked by immorality where people took God’s
word as a “business” suggesting that morality in religion was being considered
a job rather than a personal relationship with the creator. The complexities
can also be spotted from the narrations provided by Mill on how being
overworked can take a mental toll as well as the overall attitude society had
towards mental during the Victorian era. Given the similarities that can be spotted
between the Victorian era and today, I believe that the quotes applies in the
current world.
Christ. Carlyle's expression of growing lukewarmness could
also represent a hesitancy towards conforming blindly to these expectations.
For John Mill, his quote, “Suppose that all your objects in life were realized;
that all the changes in institutions and opinions which you are looking forward
to, could be completely effected at this very instant: would this be a great
joy and happiness to you?” And an irrepressible self-consciousness distinctly
answered, “No!” […] I seemed to have nothing left to live for.” (Autobiography, I: 139), referring to his
‘mental illness’ is representative of the focus on self-definition within the
Victorian society. Mill's openness about his mental illness serves as a
significant reminder of the complexities/ contradictions of the Victorian era
and how being overworked can take a mental toll as well as the overall attitude
society had towards mental during that time.
ReplyReply to Comment
Collapse SubdiscussionBrandon Escobedo
Brandon Escobedo
TuesdayFeb 13 at 11:49am
Hi Alyssa,
I think you chose some great quotes from the readings this
week, such as the one from Carlyle and his doubt on the "preaching
business." That feeling of doubt that many of us experience at one time or
another so it is quite relatable and understandable. Sometimes we have to push
through our doubts to achieve great things. I like how you talk about Mill's
'mental illness' and how he was willing to be open about it. Even nowadays
mental illness can still be seen as a hinderance or looked down upon and this
may not be if people are more willing to talk about it and share their
struggles with dealing with it. Great post and quotes from this week!
ReplyReply to Comment
Collapse SubdiscussionJaden Langston
Jaden Langston
TuesdayFeb 13 at 2pm
Hello Alyssa! I also liked the same line from Carlyle and
the insight it brings. I can see where this applies to modern day as well. A
lot is happening in the world as if now and the theme of doubt can arise. It
also brings the idea of questioning those above in power.
ReplyReply to Comment
Collapse SubdiscussionTy Waymire
Ty Waymire
SundayFeb 11 at 5:42pm
I have chosen this quote from Thomas Carlyle’s “Past and
Present” writing, where he states, “So many hundred thousands sit in
workhouses: and other hundred thousands have not yet got even workhouses.” With
this quote, I believe that Carlyle is trying to touch on the Victorian topic of
empire and colonialism, as well as social reform. Throughout the entire piece,
Carlyle talks about the downward spiral of the society and economy due to the
many policies and industrialization. He touches on the fact that many people
are working day and night, while the wealthy people of the society indulge
themselves and use these unfair policies to hurt the people they see as beneath
them. I think with this writing, Carlyle aims to make a change or spark some
sort of match within the lower class/commons of Britain.
I have also chosen this quote from John Stuart Mill’s “The
Subjection of Women”, where he states. “All men, except the most brutish,
desire to have, in the woman most nearly connected with them, not a forced slave
but a willing one, not a slave merely, but a favourite.” With this quote, I
think Mill’s is trying to touch on the idea of social reform and morality
within the Victorian ideals. In this essay, Mill argues against gender
inequality in society and states that both genders should have equal power. I
think it’s very interesting that he argues against his own side, of being male,
in order to put himself out in the eyes of everyone to speak on his ideals.
ReplyReply to Comment
Collapse SubdiscussionAlyssa Arispe
Alyssa Arispe
TuesdayFeb 13 at 10:46am
Hi Ty. You did a great job of giving insights into the
Victorian era and how both Carlyle and Mills advocated for social reform and
moral progress. I agree that Carlyle's quote illustrates the inequalities and injustices
the working class faces due to industrialization. This quote is a great example
of how his works are intended to ignite change between socioeconomic classes.
ReplyReply to Comment
Collapse SubdiscussionBrandon Escobedo
Brandon Escobedo
TuesdayFeb 13 at 11:56am
Hi Ty,
I like the quotes you chose to expand upon from the
reading's this week and the ways in which you explained them. I liked the quote
that you chose from Carlyle about industrialization and the effect it had upon
the Victorian Age and we can still see ways in which those feelings still apply
today. The working class of today also seems to toil day and night to make ends
meat while a small wealthy percent continue to grow their wealth while the rest
of society seemingly struggles. It is still relevant to us today in a way.
Great post this week! :)
ReplyReply to Comment
Collapse SubdiscussionJaden Langston
Jaden Langston
TuesdayFeb 13 at 2:04pm
Hello Ty, great job on your response! I also enjoyed reading
on Mill's line on gender inequality. I felt as if this particular story he
wrote, is an ode to the future. Gender inequality is still around today, and
his ideas touched onto reality now. Granted, it's much better than in his era,
however this idea applies today.
ReplyReply to Comment
Collapse SubdiscussionEmma Mohr
Emma Mohr
MondayFeb 12 at 5:10pm
I have chosen a quote from John Stuart Mill’s “The
Subjection of Women,” where I believe he is primarily addressing social
reform. Mill states, “That the principle
which regulates the existing social relations between the two sexes—the legal
subordination of one sex to the other—is wrong in itself, and now one the chief
hindrances to human improvement; and that it ought to be replaced by a
principle of perfect equality” (Mill Chapter 1). Here, Mill states that the current social
relationship between men and women is one of subjugation and needs to be
changed. The relationship is unjust and
damaging to society and individuals. It
is because of this that Mill reasons that a principle of social and legal
equality should replace the already existing dynamic.
The quote from Thomas Carlyle I have chosen is “Nothing, my
friends,—till you have got a soul for yourselves again. Till then all things are “impossible”.
(Carlyle 1080). This quote comes from
the “Past and Present” (Gospel of Mammonism).
I believe that this quote touches on the issues of colonialism and
morality. The Rich people that he was
addressing did not care about this woman as she was not one of them. Though he does not address it, there was a
division amongst the Catholics and the Church of England, and many Catholics
suffered and died because the Church of England felt that they were not “one of
them”. This is an effect of colonialism
as one power comes in and tells another group you do not matter. It also touches on morality, as these people
could not be bothered to help out this woman and her children. You call yourselves charitable, and yet you
can not be bothered to help. So he calls
them out by saying that they have no soul.
ReplyReply to Comment
Collapse SubdiscussionAlyssa Arispe
Alyssa Arispe
TuesdayFeb 13 at 11:01am
Hi Emma. Mill's call for equality instead of one gender
dominating the other is still evident in advocates in modern society. I think
his works strike a chord with the challenges women still face. It’s interesting
to see his works still relevant in many ways. For example how there are still
unfair social dynamics, especially in work environments, legal systems, and our
health care systems. Great post!
ReplyReply to Comment
Collapse SubdiscussionBrandon Escobedo
Brandon Escobedo
TuesdayFeb 13 at 12:04pm
Hi Emma,
You chose some strong quotes from the readings this week and
explained them quite well. Mill calls for a more equal footing between the
sexes in "The Subjection of Women" which is still a relevant issue
today. Women can achieve more than society has often allowed them too and holds
them back in more domesticated roles when they can often have a certain talent
or ability or job that they are naturally gifted in that would better help out
society and themselves as they would be in a role they could excel in. These
are strong sentiments that are still relevant in society today as women have
continuously fought for equal rights and treatment as their male counterparts.
Great quotes and great post! :)
ReplyReply to Comment
Collapse SubdiscussionJaden Langston
Jaden Langston
TuesdayFeb 13 at 2:09pm
Hi Emma, I liked reading your response from Mill's "The
Subjection of Women." I commented in the other post, that this work in
particular is eerily similar in a way to the gender equality we face now. It's
interesting to see how Victorian themes touch on today's ideas. I enjoyed
reading the fight in him and to read he sees the wrong in the inequality.
ReplyReply to Comment
Collapse SubdiscussionNancy Garcia
Nancy Garcia
TuesdayFeb 13 at 9:59pm
Hello, Emma!
Good choice of quotes.
I also believe "The Subjection of Women" focuses
on social reform for women. How incredible to know that a man fought for
women's rights! Marriages have come a long way and we have many advocates to
thank. Mill is one more to be thankful for as he critiqued the subordination of
women.
And regarding the quote you provided from Carlyle, I
appreciate your explanation of it! I agree with you and it makes total sense
they had no care at all for the woman-- merely due to a difference in religion.
Colonialism was in fact, immoral because from an ethical standpoint,
colonialism often violated human rights.
ReplyReply to Comment
Collapse SubdiscussionBrandon Escobedo
Brandon Escobedo
TuesdayFeb 13 at 11:41am
The first quote I chose was from "Labour [Know Thy Work]"
by Thomas Carlyle which states, "For there is a perennial nobleness, and
even sacredness, in Work. Were he never so benighted, forgetful of his high
calling, there is always hope in a man that actually and earnestly works: in
Idleness is there perpetual despair." In this quote I think that Carlyle
is addressing the Victorian concern on work and the importance that they place
upon work and the effects it can have on a man's life. Through hard work a man
have hope and achieve more in his life compared to a man who stays idle and
does not work hard for anything. The only way to achieve anything worthwhile is
to work hard towards it so that you can achieve it and this is why such a heavy
emphasis was placed on the importance of work.
The second quote that I have chosen from John Stuart Mill's
"The Subjection of Women" states, "The claim of women to be
educated as solidly, and in the same branches of knowledge, as men, is urged
with growing intensity, and with a great prospect of success; while the demand
for their admission into professions and occupations hitherto closed against
them, becomes every year more urgent." The Victorian concern that I think
is addressed by Mill all throughout "The Subjection of Women" is that
of Social Reform. He addresses the differences between the sexes and how
society has placed women into certain domestic roles and servility to the male
sex when they have much more to offer and ways to help benefit society.
ReplyReply to Comment
Collapse SubdiscussionHeriberto Alvarez
Heriberto Alvarez (He/Him/His)
TuesdayFeb 13 at 3:41pm
Hello Brandon, Thomas Carlyle was indeed an incredible
writer and is a big advocate for working through the poverty that England was
going through at the time, even offering his own proposals for the working man
on how eventually one will find what they are seeking through the power of
work. Great post!
ReplyReply to Comment
Collapse SubdiscussionAvery Kunkel
Avery Kunkel
TuesdayFeb 13 at 4:21pm
Hi Brandon, nice post! I thought your first quote from
Thomas Carlyle perfectly represented how work fits into the Victorian period.
And I think there is a lot of truth to this quote. In earnest works, there is
hope for someone. If you are ont working towards something, what are you really
doing? And by this, I don't mean just a job. This means anything you could be
working towards, or progressing at. I like your second quote and sadly women
did have roles they had to fill that were different and sometimes more demining
than men's roles. Great job!
ReplyReply to Comment
Collapse SubdiscussionNancy Garcia
Nancy Garcia
TuesdayFeb 13 at 10:04pm
Hello, Brandon!
I enjoyed reading your post and found your quotes to be
great choices. Carlyle was known for touching on subjects related to work and
your quote fits that perfectly. I find this quote to be one that can still be
applied in our modern world, don't you think? This quote is timeless and it is
these kinds of quotes that are the most inspiring and truly become the most
powerful!
Great job, Brandon!
ReplyReply to Comment
Collapse SubdiscussionJaden Langston
Jaden Langston
TuesdayFeb 13 at 1:57pm
In this discussion, these lines from both Carlyle and Mill
stuck out to me. First off, Carlyle describes his youth in fear saying,
“hurrying darkly and uselessy away.” This was interesting to read because I
feel as though the youth today might feel this way in these times. The world is
constantly moving and can feel overwhelming and the feeling to hurry and catch
up. However, if you’re not surrounded with positive energy around you, life
could feel this way. This brings up the theme of doubt within the Victorian
era. For Mill, his concept of happiness at times felt relatable. He says, “The
ingredients of happiness are very various, and each of them is desirable in
itself.” This line perfectly represents the Victorian era in the
self-definition and nostalgia department. The idea of happiness looks different
for so many people, however we as a people will chase that happiness; no matter
what it takes.
ReplyReply to Comment
Collapse SubdiscussionHeriberto Alvarez
Heriberto Alvarez (He/Him/His)
TuesdayFeb 13 at 3:49pm
Hello Jaden, great quotes that you have chosen; both writers
share a similarity in standing for what they believe in: Thomas Carlyle
shedding light on social inequality and John Stuart Mill standing up for gender
inequality I find it fascinating that in these times such issues were of great
concern. Great work!
ReplyReply to Comment
Collapse SubdiscussionAvery Kunkel
Avery Kunkel
TuesdayFeb 13 at 9:29pm
Hi Jaden, great discussion form response! I think that you
are absolutely right that the youth might feel this way still today. Many teens
are struggling with finding goals and purposes in their lives. Great way of
incorporating the doubt in the Victorian Era into your quote. For Mill's, I
really liked the quote. I think the quote speaks truth on many different
levels. It also, in a way, correlates to your first quote from Carlyle. How
happiness is something that everyone is trying to find while they struggle through
dark times, with no hope or light. I also like how you said the idea of
happiness looks different to everyone because that is very truthful. Everyone
must find what makes them happy, and what they find joy in doing!
ReplyReply to Comment
Collapse SubdiscussionNancy Garcia
Nancy Garcia
TuesdayFeb 13 at 10:11pm
Hello, Jaden.
I enjoyed your interpretation of Mills' quote regarding
happiness. You are correct, this quote is a great example of self-definition.
However, I also feel it can fall under Information as well, with his level of
certainty as to what defines happiness. This quote is also timeless, and one
that people can still relate to today, and take his words as advice. Good job
on your post!
ReplyReply to Comment
Collapse SubdiscussionAvery Kunkel
Avery Kunkel
TuesdayFeb 13 at 2:39pm
From John Stuart Mill, section 1 (Life) I picked the quote,
“[W]hoever could master the premises and combine the methods of both, would
possess the entire English philosophy of their age." I think this quote really
relates to the knowledge/information part of the Victorian Era. The Victorians
enjoyed learning and being consumers of information. They tried to exclude
ignorance and prohibit knowledge. This quote really speaks to what the
Victorian age was all about. Working hard to master knowledge. The quote I
chose from Carlyle is, "I've got a great ambition to die of exhaustion
rather than boredom." I think this quote speaks greatly to the level of
work in the Victorian era. Victorians were excited to work rather than be lazy.
They were keen on maximizing their time. During this time, urbanization was
also happening, so people had to work harder to keep their jobs. People's jobs
were in crisis so working hard was important.
ReplyReply to Comment
Collapse SubdiscussionHeriberto Alvarez
Heriberto Alvarez (He/Him/His)
TuesdayFeb 13 at 3:36pm
Hello Avery, I agree with the quote that you have chosen for
John Stuart Mill is fascinating one can resonate with such a quote about how
powerful learning new knowledge can be but can also be dangerous depending on
the circumstance, regardless one is still furthering their knowledge. Great
insight!
ReplyReply to Comment
Collapse SubdiscussionCharley Biddle
Charley Biddle
YesterdayFeb 14 at 9:15am
Hi Avery! What's interesting about the quote you picked from
John Stuart Mill is that it was written about Samuel Taylor Coleridge whose
writings primarily came from the Romantic Era. This goes back to the idea (from
our lecture this week) that the Romantic and Victorian Eras did not have an
exact beginning or ending but rather blended in a transition from one point of
view to another. I think this also ties into the Victorian Era aspect of
knowledge and information that you shared in your response.
ReplyReply to Comment
Collapse SubdiscussionHeriberto Alvarez
Heriberto Alvarez (He/Him/His)
TuesdayFeb 13 at 3:30pm
In “The Subjection Of Women” by John Stuart Mill, the thesis
of the essay is social reform; not only does Mill want the audience to
understand inequality, gender roles, and classism, but how society has
constructed the idea that men are superior to women, how certain races are
above others, and in general a type of Ethnics that is not just incorporated
into the essay but the individual as well, going back to what is predominately
discussed: gender inequality, Mill sheds light on such a powerful topic as Mill
states, “The subjection of women to men being a universal custom, any departure
from it quite naturally appears unnatural” (23). To live in a world where power
is on the opposite end would be abnormal; one is so accustomed to the idea of a
man or husband playing the dominant role and the wife playing the submissive
(does not imply that women cannot play the dominant role), but this is just
entire ideology of Men and Women that one has grown accustomed to.
In the “Past and Present” by Thomas Carlyle, the discussion
of where the empire of England resides is of great concern to Carlyle: the
poverty, systemic inequality, and agriculture are causing damaging effects
within the industry of England; the hierarchy is very much divided between the
rich and the poor as Carlyle discusses the unequal distribution of wealth,
“This successful industry of England with its plethoric wealth has as yet made
nobody rich; it is an enchanted wealth and belongs yet to nobody” (1078). An
immense amount of potential for an individual to grow and flourish, but greed
and power keep the poor in poverty and the rich in the highest class, Carlyle
collected his research from what he perceived in England during this time and
determined that such issues were of greatest importance and offers wisdom about
work “the real desire to get work done will itself lead one more and more to
truth” (1080). Even in poverty, an individual has what is given to work.
ReplyReply to Comment
Collapse SubdiscussionAvery Kunkel
Avery Kunkel
TuesdayFeb 13 at 9:22pm
Hi Heriberto, I really enjoyed reading your discussion post!
I thought you had great insight into Stuart Mill's quote, and it is sad that it
would be so strange to picture the dominant role as being the female. We have
grown super accustomed to the husband or man in the situation being the higher
power. For Carlyle, I think this quote holds lots of truth about power and
greed. He spoke to what he saw, and lots of what we are still seeing today. Obsession
with money causes greed and hence causing poverty for many people. Really great
insight to your two quotes.
ReplyReply to Comment
Collapse SubdiscussionCharley Biddle
Charley Biddle
YesterdayFeb 14 at 9:06am
Hello, Heriberto! I think it might've been a challenge to
find a quote from either of these guys that didn't contain a reference to a
Victorian characteristic. While it is clear that John Stuart Mill was primarily
writing about social reform and Thomas Carlyle about work, respectively, I
wonder if either of them were able to blend multiple Victorian traits into
their writings. Throughout both of these works, I believe there is a portion of
self-definition present. In both men's attempts to convey information about the
state of society, they are reflecting on and defining what it is that makes
people people. Great quotes, Heriberto, and tremendous analysis!
ReplyReply to Comment
Collapse SubdiscussionNancy Garcia
Nancy Garcia
TuesdayFeb 13 at 9:46pm
“The law, not determining her rights, but theoretically
allowing her none at all, practically declares that the measure of what she has
a right to, is what she can contrive to get” (The Subjection of Women, Pg 78).
This quote is found in “The Subjection of Women” by John
Stuart Mill. In this quote, Mill addresses the need for equality for women
within the institution of marriage. Social reform for women is Mill’s goal as
he criticizes the inadequacy of the legal system explaining that although the
law states that women have rights in the marriage, those rights end up only
being theoretical because women still face societal and systemic barriers.
“This successful industry of England, with its plethoric
wealth, has as yet made nobody rich; it is an enchanted wealth, and belongs yet
to nobody” (Past and Present, Pg 1078).
This quote from “Past and Present” by Thomas Carlyle, is
referring to his disappointment in England’s apparent economic prosperity while
the wealth remains inaccessible to the people. This quote suggests a flawed
economic system and ultimately, a flawed system concerning work. He is critical
of the illusion that although the country may have wealth, the people don’t see
it and don’t get to enjoy any of it.
ReplyReply to Comment
Collapse SubdiscussionCharley Biddle
Charley Biddle
YesterdayFeb 14 at 9am
Hello, Nancy! You picked two awesome quotes that highlight
Victorian virtues. Though I chose a different quote from John Stuart Mill, I
was still able to pick up on the idea of social reform, and I'm glad that
transcends throughout his entire work. As for the quote you have from Carlyle,
I wonder if the Victorian feature of doubt is at all present. While he states
that England is prosperous he also points out that, and you've mentioned this
as well, England's working class receives no benefit! There is a tangible sense
of doubt in Carlyle's writings surrounding England's financial success.
ReplyReply to Comment
Collapse SubdiscussionEmma Mohr
Emma Mohr
YesterdayFeb 14 at 9:58am
Hi Nancy,
Your quote from Mill is straightforward. It definitely
touches upon social reform when it comes to the rights of women, especially
married women. I also think it touches
on morality somewhat, as he is basically saying that it is immoral to deprive
women of their rights. Your quote from
Carlyle definitely discusses the Victorian characteristic of work. It could also be seen as touching on social
reform as well as he is asserting that the poor stay poor and the rich seem to
remain rich.
ReplyReply to Comment
Collapse SubdiscussionCharley Biddle
Charley Biddle
YesterdayFeb 14 at 8:51am
The quote that I selected from John Stuart Mill is quite
lengthy but I feel that it addresses a few of the major Victorian qualities
outlined in our lecture,
"Of all difficulties which impede the progress of thought,
and the formation of well-grounded opinions on life and social arrangements,
the greatest is now the unspeakable ignorance and inattention of mankind in
respect to the influences which form human character ... even when the most
elementary knowledge of the circumstances in which they have been placed,
clearly points out the causes that made them what they are."
This highlights ideas such as self-definition, social
reform, and doubt.
The quote I chose from Thomas Carlyle differs from Mill's,
"With unabated bounty the land of England blooms and
grows; waving with yellow harvests; thick-studded with workshops, industrial
implements, with fifteen millions of workers, understood to the strongest, the
cunningest and the willingest out Earth ever had," and he goes on singing
his praises.
I think this quote highlights the self-definition that
Mill's excerpt had but with a touch of confidence rather than doubt. Carlyle's
quote comments heavily on work while also hinting at the disruptive innovation
of 'industrial implements.'
Edited by Charley Biddle on Feb 14 at 8:52am
ReplyReply to Comment
Collapse SubdiscussionEmma Mohr
Emma Mohr
YesterdayFeb 14 at 9:48am
Hi Charley,
Your quote from Mills does address many Victorian
qualities. While you listed three, I
think even more apply. I think Mills was
also informing people about the causes of human nature. He projected confidence in his interpretation
as well. Regarding your quote from Carlyle I agree that the quote projects
confidence and the work of the people of England. There is a touch of empire or colonialism as
many products England created got their raw materials from their colonies. While he claims it is England’s bounty, in
reality, they would not have had the success he lists if it were not for the
raw materials coming from their colonies.
ReplyReply to Comment
Collapse SubdiscussionBraden Bailey
Braden Bailey
YesterdayFeb 14 at 1:54pm
I liked the Carlyle quote "For there is a perennial
nobleness, and even sacredness, in Work. Were he never so benighted, forgetful
of his high calling" because it talks about the perceived value of being
an individual in the working force. He (and likely many others) sees it as
noble or even sacred which I would imagine is quite high praise for the time.
Also, the Stuart Mill quote "The subjection of women to men being a
universal custom, any departure from it quite naturally appears unnatural"
is touching lightly on the "morality" I think that the Victorian era
will become known for. I feel as though he is writing this almost to poke holes
in this argument. Why does it make sense for this to be the way, what if it
were the other way around, why would that be unnatural. I believe that this
marks some sort of turning point in the shift of (re)evaluating gender norms.
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